Conversations with a young medical student friend of mine in the New England Area. We have spoken several times over the past several years, and corresponded some, so there is a good bit of history between us.
[Sept 9/2003]
Loose Table of Topics (but the rambling is legendary...):
Emotionally disturbing passages (“I never knew you”, “bring my enemies and slay in front of me”, Wicked Tenants, Moral Governance)
Disparity between God's ethics and ours: Does “Higher” mean “alien”?
Emotional disturbing passages revisited (“I never knew you—depart from me”)
Heaven & Hell—the only two options for these people?
Emotional disturbing passages revisited (“slay my enemies before me”)
Are Passages “Guilty until proven innocent?”--the issue of approach and expectation
List of Emotionally Embarrassing Passages (Paul/women, Paul's contempt for humans, NT disgust toward unbelievers, punitive view of doubt, Jesus' contempt for people)
How important is Scripture to my theology?
Emotional problems with the “silence” of God, and evidence from ex-Christians
More Problem Passages and Problems with Jesus' tone of voice
Approaching Difficult Passages (Guilty until Innocent?) with the method of the Problem of Evil
[His comments in BLUE]
Hey, Glenn. I hope this finds you doing well. I thought I'd update you. You know I don't hold you responsible for making this make sense in any way. I'm just grateful as always for your kind ear listening to what must seem to you like a bottomless pit of issues. I hope some day we'll be able to talk and have it not be about a crisis of mine, but I thank you for hanging in.
My friend and I called off our negotiations last night when it became - it seemed to us, at least - clear we weren't getting anywhere. She couldn't see, and I couldn't defend to her, how a relationship with Christ could add anything to a life already as wonderful as she could imagine even in theory, being full of beautiful relationships with other people and of the wonders of the natural world. And the claim that "it's important because it's true" didn't impress her because she felt philosophically that history is incomplete and can't demonstrate the truth of something like the resurrection. I don't think I can fault her reasoning given her premises; I can't imagine what, besides the direct touch of God, could give her good reason to doubt the premises. So we talked about how sorry we were, and comforted each other for a while, and said good night.
I'm deeply relieved that we managed to keep the whole thing pure and that we didn't drag it out. I don't really know what to with myself now. I have about twenty books checked out right now on worldviews, creation myths and other things, spouting twenty different opinions that all have elements of truth in them, and I am less and less optimistic about my ability to 'look at all the relevant evidence and come to the most likely conclusion' the way you somehow manage to. That seems to require knowing everything about everything and having a mind not poisoned by six years' self-manipulation and the desperate hopes and fears of the present. When will I have read enough books? In the book of John, Jesus asked people to believe in him based on the miracles, the fulfilled prophecies, and the witness of His character. We can't see the miracles, I agree Isaiah 53 is pretty strong, and while there are beautiful things in His character, He made statements and threats about hell that are heartbreaking. (and I know your replies to my replies to your replies, but...)
It's not that I really think the witness of the gospels is weak...clearly something very strange happened in 1st-century Palestine...but i am coming to resent their trapping me in a system that, partly because of their own gut-ripping 'minority data', has taken me in six years from being a normal sinner to being manic-depressive, pessimistic, secretive, incapable of judging my own honesty, and increasingly unstable. When this girl and I began these talks, I told God that I knew it was me getting myself into this and I wouldn't be bitter at Him if it didn't work out. Easier said than done, of course, but there is also the fact that this is just the latest in the chain of things that could have been a witness of His glory but just fizzled. If the evidence is strong enough that I can't simply walk away, but the work in my life is dark enough that I have almost no hope for ever having a life of joy in Christ, what hope do I have in this life except to die and then have everything explained to me? (I'm being melodramatic but not suicidal.) The things that keep me from walking away right now are the people (Christian and nonChristian) that I think it would betray (good God, I was the XYZ Christian med/dental ass'n president! what right do I have, when I'm clearly not seeing the gospel right, to make them doubt it?), the threat of hell, and the confidence that even if I never get it right, at least right now I'm getting it wrong.
Given the truth of the faith, I almost wonder if God in His love wouldn't rather I did walk away for a decade or so, self-contradictory as that is. But to what? The best thing I have in life right now is this girl's love, and what kind of weird spiritual exploitation and treachery to her would it be, to walk off into her arms not knowing if I was confirming her forever in opposition to the gospel ('and look what my husband went through because of that crap!') What kind of responsibilities to whom do I have in such a situation?
I'm sorry, Glenn. I feel like I must be a disappointment of some size to you but I'm not sure what I could be doing differently. I have felt the comfort of God sometimes in the past, and I won't say I was hallucinating. But it hasn't been enough to make me expect it confidently and I certainly don't feel it now. I don't know whether to walk away and I don't know what to do with my daily life if I don't, and I don't expect you to have any answers for me. I'm so sorry. This is not what I ever wanted.
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I responded:
Hey, Glenn. I hope this finds you doing well.
[doing okay, i guess...a little fragmented from all my wonderful visitors...my oldest daughter and my son derek, are here with me for another couple of days. but at least i dont have to travel this next week...but overall, more or less okay...some challenges, but nothing big enough to 'glory in' yet (smile)...]
I thought I'd update you. You know I don't hold you responsible for making this make sense in any way. I'm just grateful as always for your kind ear listening to what must seem to you like a bottomless pit of issues. I hope some day we'll be able to talk and have it not be about a crisis of mine, but I thank you for hanging in.
[i have every confidence that we will get there... my experience has been that the "depth of distress" is directly proportional to (a) the depth of character /wisdom grown thereby; and (b) the height of appreciation grown when the 'deliverance' is realized, is seen, and is understood in the awesomeness of the design/timing...
My friend and I called off our negotiations last night when it became - it seemed to us, at least - clear we weren't getting anywhere. She couldn't see, and I couldn't defend to her, how a relationship with Christ could add anything to a life already as wonderful as she could imagine even in theory, being full of beautiful relationships with other people and of the wonders of the natural world.
[hmmm...much could be said here, especially in the areas of 'soma' self-delusion, and accounting for the origin of those wonders, and for a clear understanding of the depth of human treachery, exploitation, callousness, and self-interest in human history...but dont get me started...sigh...but let's leave this for now...]
And the claim that "it's important because it's true" didn't impress her because she felt philosophically that history is incomplete and can't demonstrate the truth of something like the resurrection. I don't think I can fault her reasoning given her premises; I can't imagine what, besides the direct touch of God, could give her good reason to doubt the premises.
[again, much to discuss here later...human history ALONE has been enough to drive people to cry out for God, if only for the others in one's life...but anyway....]
So we talked about how sorry we were, and comforted each other for a while, and said good night. I'm deeply relieved that we managed to keep the whole thing pure and that we didn't drag it out.
[that is amazing! and i truly honor you for that, friend! what a grace-gift in itself...to BOTH of you]
I don't really know what to with myself now. I have about twenty books checked out right now on worldviews, creation myths and other things, spouting twenty different opinions that all have elements of truth in them, and I am less and less optimistic about my ability to 'look at all the relevant evidence and come to the most likely conclusion' the way you somehow manage to.
[actually, i dont think that level of effort is truly required...its more of finding a couple of non-negotiables in history and finding ways to fit the OTHER side into views 'configured' by those...
[if the Cross/Tomb thing really occurred--and one is convinced that that is the most likely explanation for the data from the early church history--then this event radically constrains the interpretation of other more-ambiguous phenomena (e.g. introspection, NDE's, evidence for reincarnation, creation account commonalities, etc).
[in theory construction, one always weights each data point on the basis of its clarity, force, and relative 'stubbornness to reinterpretation'...facts always reside in a landscape, with relative proportions...
That seems to require knowing everything about everything and having a mind not poisoned by six years' self-manipulation and the desperate hopes and fears of the present.
[take it from an EXPERT (maybe even world class) self-manipulator: Self-manipulation never occurs in a vacuum, in the life of a believer...the Spirit, providence, the Word, and the ever-developing conscience 'conspire' against such a filibuster...(smile)... i have discovered, personally, that my rationalization/maniplx efforts have gotten more effective over time (sad grin), but SO HAS my ability to detect it, discount it, (sometimes preclude it), and bemoan it... the swirl of 'mental processes' is another of those HUGELY non-monolithic things...
When will I have read enough books? In the book of John, Jesus asked people to believe in him based on the miracles, the fulfilled prophecies, and the witness of His character. We can't see the miracles, I agree Isaiah 53 is pretty strong, and while there are beautiful things in His character, He made statements and threats about hell that are heartbreaking. (and I know your replies to my replies to your replies, but...)
[okay, I'll be quiet for a while now...(okay, 'quite period over'...grin) but remember, we don't need a rash of identical miracles every generation--we just need adequate reason to believe the honest-heart stories of those original witnesses...just like we do in every other area of life...its supposed to be easy enough for a little child to do this...its only the experience of deceit and subterfuge that makes one more 'cautious' about all this...
It's not that I really think the witness of the gospels is weak...clearly something very strange happened in 1st-century Palestine...but i am coming to resent their trapping me in a system that, partly because of their own gut-ripping 'minority data',
[sorry, but i don't understand the phrase 'minority data' there--is this referring to (a) areas we have very little data about; or (b) teachings around social minorities (e.g., women, poor, slaves, etc); or (c) something else...?]
has taken me in six years from being a normal sinner to being manic-depressive, pessimistic, secretive, incapable of judging my own honesty, and increasingly unstable. When this girl and I began these talks, I told God that I knew it was me getting myself into this and I wouldn't be bitter at Him if it didn't work out. Easier said than done, of course,
[i must say i had a small chuckle at this--i have been there SO MANY TIMES myself... my altruistic and noble theories were great for singing and dancing with, but hard to wake up with in the morning... i am still having to struggle with this LATI thing--and I don't know how long it will take for that sore spot to melt...
[and i do/did the same thing about many 'mistakes' in my past... when God stops me from something, i complain about THAT--but, when He lets me go ahead with something, though (generally via self-manipulation), then I complain 'why didn't you stop me, if you really are guiding/protecting me?!'...God cannot win this with me, obviously...
but there is also the fact that this is just the latest in the chain of things that could have been a witness of His glory but just fizzled.
[same here, of course... when i made a similar complaint to a pastor years ago, he told me my expectations were unrealistically too high...big league baseball players are judged to be HUGELY successful with batting averages of only .300 ]that's 3 hits (not even home runs) out of 10 at-batts].
[not that this helps any when i strike out, of course...smile]
If the evidence is strong enough that I can't simply walk away, but the work in my life is dark enough that I have almost no hope for ever having a life of joy in Christ, what hope do I have in this life except to die and then have everything explained to me? (I'm being melodramatic but not suicidal.)
[i understand this last remark--and it 'takes one to know one' of course...(big grin)]
The things that keep me from walking away right now are the people (Christian and nonChristian) that I think it would betray (good God, I was the XYZ Christian med/dental ass'n president! what right do I have, when I'm clearly not seeing the gospel right, to make them doubt it?), the threat of hell, and the confidence that even if I never get it right, at least right now I'm getting it wrong.
[not to in anyway minimize the anguish of your heart right now friend, but i have to point out that this has been a frequent and recurring experience in my life for 30 years... some events which pushed me to your point were more severe than others [E.g., my giving away all my Christian books to my pastor, upon my divorce. I told him over lunch that though i was as convinced of the truth of the gospel and the Word as i was of my own existence, it was VERY CLEAR TO ME that i had NO IDEA how it was supposed to be applied, to work, to be taught...God had not answered my anguished, heart-felt, incessant prayer for healing in the marriage... what as i ever going to say to people about the 'promises of God'?! although my experience of Christ was very, very deep at the time, the frustration/hopelessness/befuddlement of the situation was so overwhelming... i couldn't deny what i was convinced of was true, but i couldn't TEACH or ShARE or PROCLAIM it with anything more certain than "its absolutely true historically, but i cannot fathom how its supposed to impact your life"!!! (I still actually have issues in the application area--its often glossed over in evangelicalism, and i have been pondering this in my post-Slogan decades...]
[i had settled to simply 'hide' from the Christian groups...not be an ex-Tian, but simply not to 'engage' in the dialogue, until i got further along somehow...
Given the truth of the faith, I almost wonder if God in His love wouldn't rather I did walk away for a decade or so, self-contradictory as that is. But to what?
[one rule of thumb i use in my personal experience: when it gets this confusing, this bad, this dark, i work through an argument that runs like this:
1. Jesus said his burden was light and that i would find rest for my soul by carrying it
2. i am currently experiencing a HEAVY burden and am finding massive anti-rest;
3. ergo, i am carrying an altogether different load than that of Jesus...
[So, i try to slow down, drop some of the tasks/quests i am currently 'working on', and try to focus more on the celebratory, meditative, and social outreach tasks--'learn of me' it said in that passage.
[So, its not at all implausible that God wants you to walk away from SOMETHING, but i doubt that means walking away from the best source of healing and renewal...my 'somethings' are generally self-appointed 'missions' to do something, to be something, and assuming more 'Shepard role' than 'sheep role' (smile)... i actually have been doing better in this area the last two years--when i start feeling 'burdened' or heavy, i go back to the 'sheep' metaphor...and remind the Shepherd that i will (temporarily) "not concern myself with matters too high for me" or some-such...i make a volitional commitment to trust-without-much-understanding (i visualize the little sheep looking up at Jesus, with the same relative level of non-comprehension), banking on the 'clear' data of His love manifested at the Cross...THAT data point is the strongest, most stubborn fact i can find in religious history...
[and plenty of people know to 'walk away' to years of brooding, to quiet reflection, to 'Arabia', to monasteries, to caves of meditation, etc...to withdraw a little from the flurry (whether physical or not is not the issue). But walking away from 'holding the Rock up' makes perfect sense, at a minimum...
The best thing I have in life right now is this girl's love, and what kind of weird spiritual exploitation and treachery to her would it be, to walk off into her arms not knowing if I was confirming her forever in opposition to the gospel ('and look what my husband went through because of that crap!') What kind of responsibilities to whom do I have in such a situation?
[your insight here is amazing, friend...very incisive...you are absolutely right: it would be almost anti-love or anti-friendship to do such a thing...
[but i have to add again something from my experience have 'tried' such relationships, and discovered the pain associated with sharing a life/relationship with someone who could not share the most important thing of your life with you! Even in those days, my relationship with Jesus was my life--my first experience of peace, acceptance, and welcome I found in Him... i was still a little young in the faith, and without the extended audit trial of His grace i have now, but what i wanted to talk about MOST were the things of Jesus, His work in my life, and my wishes/hopes/plans to serve Him in love. When my HIGHEST, most CORE aspect of my life was something my companion had NO APPRECIATION FOR, and merely 'condescendingly listened to me' about, it was a corrosive load i would not wish on anyone...
I'm sorry, Glenn. I feel like I must be a disappointment of some size to you
[hardly, my friend--its just that your experience is so 'familiar to me'..."Ralph-ogeny recapitulates Glenn-ogeny"...smile... and, in a bizarre way, that actually encourages me...i have lived through similar periods of abject despondence and frustration (ESPECIALLY epistemic despair), and will yet again, but somehow He brought me through to where i am today...my frustration is still a 'visitor', but he comes less and less frequently...(although after a great big high-stress project, (read: "norepinephrine to minus 25" levels), it moves into my home for several days...(self-sneer)...so, i have an odd 'audit trail' (from my experience) that suggests that our wise and gentle Jesus will do the same for you...
but I'm not sure what I could be doing differently.
[that's the frustration of it all--since it is a failure of execution, and we THOUGHT the execution was 'deduced exclusively' from the theology, we are stuck! without a different way to draw life-implications from the NT stories, our theology, etc, we seem paralyzed.
I have felt the comfort of God sometimes in the past, and I won't say I was hallucinating. But it hasn't been enough to make me expect it confidently
[He doesn't let us 'use' personal experiences like those as a major buttress for our faith, until such buttressing is unnecessary. Our faith is grounded (at first) in our sense of truth, and in our sense that the witnesses to Christ are 'reliable enough' to trust, in their portrayal of His heart, His work, His offer of help/grace, and His desire/design for our peace of heart and peace of mind. Later, after we are sufficiently trapped by the avalanche of personal data, personal 'non-numinous' experience, and answered prayer, these moments of special comfort are seen as gifts and glimpses of the New Future.
[But our expectation of comfort has to recognize also the expectation of grief (over loss of a dream) and the expectation of the emotional results of confusion. Comfort MIGHT come, but INSIGHT certainly will. Some wisdom carries a memory of pain, instead of a memory of pleasure...but they are both wisdom and depth and both lead to peacefulness.
and I certainly don't feel it now. I don't know whether to walk away and I don't know what to do with my daily life if I don't, and I don't expect you to have any answers for me. I'm so sorry. This is not what I ever wanted.
[i know you don't expect any answers from me (chuckle), but that didn't stop me for offering my warmest affection as your friend, did it? (Smile)... my verbiage above is probably useless, but you MIGHT be helped by knowing how frequent, how intense, how demoralizing my OWN (similar) experiences have been...i learned the hard way that it is the silent griever, sitting beside you in silence and in tears on the Mourner's Bench with you that made the difference--it was NOT the people who tried to 'explain' her death, or those who exhorted me to 'trust the Lord', or those who offered practical advice...it was the co-sufferers with me that were the truest manifestation of the comfort of God to me...
[of course, i have done here ALL THREE of the 'useless' approaches I mention above (embarrassed smile)--in my 'just wanting to help'--but you KNOW the motivation is a God-given love (remember, the love between non-kinship, not-in-the-same-community, true-believers was to be the REAL PROOF of the presence of God--Romans 5.5), and you KNOW that i don't expect this stuff to 'work' for you...so, I'll shut up now and stand with you wordlessly in the Slough of Despond...
[glenn
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He wrote back:
I'd planned to talk with my Sunday-school teacher (neat guy - a messianic Jew, an organic chemistry prof at XYZ, and definitely a hard-liner but/therefore he won't 'spare my feelings'.). And one of my college fellowship leaders (a really gentle guy,) who might could in turn put me in touch with some of the big guns he knows at XYZ Seminary. I might as well try to do this right. I guess I'm seeking out the people whose positions I'm afraid of.
You know I'm always delighted above all to hear what you have to say, if you wanted to write something. It's just that I like to use you as a last resort :) and it's not fair or needful to bring you things all the time that i CAN handle elsewhere, or before I've done my best alone.
The general issue I'm trying to deal with is the question of what TYPE of evidence trumps the others...is it historical, as you suggest (though like you said, even that is ultimately based on character judgments), or is it internal (conscience) or is it experiential? If someone does miracles that I witness, commands me to hate my neighbor, and assures me that in the end it's all for good, am I 'obligated' to weight the miracles (i can't deny that they happened!) and say my conscience must be misdirected for lack of info?
More realistically, if someone demonstrates amazing compassion in some cases but troubling actions in others, and then tells me the fundamental dichotomy in life is between those who believe and those who don't, not between those who love and those who don't (OR leaves the issue unclear, teaching apparently different things in different places), and if the world seems to me to be a place that needs love much more than it needs evangelism, but I BELIEVE this person worked miracles...where does that net out? How can it be right that the core moral issue in a man's life is whether he can manage to see a perfect God in a confusing scripture, rather than whether serves the good he knows? even if it's not a requirement for basic kingdom membership, how can it be worthy of so much blood and suffering? let alone of Ralph having to restrict his social life!
so, that's what I'm trying to work on, but as above, i can see how far I can take it before asking you to weigh in yet again. :)
Anyway, I'll surely look forward to whatever you write/post. I hope your week on the road has been a good one. thanks for everything.
- Ralph
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I responded:
okay, I'll wait (chuckle)--too many questions packed into this one (LOL)...
one comment tho: the "does miracles, teaches hate" scenario reminded me of the issue of a false miracle worker in the OT. If someone DID miracles but CONTRADICTED the general core of the Lord's instructions/torah for community health/growth/etc, the miracles were actually accorded 'opposite' weight (evidence of malignance). (maybe like Paul's portrayal of the 'beautiful ministers of Satan' in 2 Cor).
anyway, thanks for the update and I am DYING to see how well the more 'traditional' Christian infrastructure might work in questions like these. [I have way too many tank readers who have experienced 'deep marginalization' at the hands of traditional Christian leadership (albeit not as educated as those in YOUR list), in cases in which honest questions of doubt, evidence, tradeoffs, etc were made 'public'...I will certainly be praying for you in THAT area!]
traveling weeks are always tuff (and i travel virtually every week), but i have a week (maybe even 2!) at home next month. I am hoping to get some stuff done (for the Tank and for the BluesPipeline--which i HOPE will eventually fund LATI). Anyway, enough blathering for now...
as a living consequence of grace in history,
glenn-at-large
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[We had a couple of discussions over the phone, about problem passages, about trusting God's goodness, etc...I 'ruminated' on those and wrote this later:
had to write some stuff down on this...been buzzzzzzing in my head for about 24 hours now...
(Random assortment, hastily written, of course)
1. it dawned on me after (one of) our visits last week that i really HAVENT had an on-going agony experience. That most of the really soul-tearing questions (cognitive questions, that is--not life experiences per se) came up in the 93-97 time frame. [I wanted to tell you this so you didn't think you have a LIFETIME of such agony ahead of you--you mentioned that last week, so i wanted to at least ENCOURAGE YOU that its not necessarily gonna be that way--smile.] But once the audit trail of calming-resolutions was behind me, then the 'surface presentation' of each succeeding question didn't create the same level of concern. The audit trail of peace-engendering resolutions provides/d me with a reasonable warrant for trusting God (i.e., assuming a resolution) in subsequent questions. Of course, i HAVE this audit trail, and you do NOT at this stage of the journey. For you, your assessment of God's goodness (and interest in progressive revelation of that goodness to you) has yet to reach some 'critical mass' of evidence in FAVOR OF a 'favorable judgment'. You see SOME data in scripture in support of His goodness (e.g., the Cross, the moral injunctions given to us, the egalitarian ethos of the Covenant community), but you see other data in scripture as being either contradictory to that, or even supplanting of that.
2. i also noticed that some of the problem passages which deeply troubled you, I had no real negative emotional response to. I can remember having some earlier, but at this point even the stronger/harsher statements make a good deal of sense to me.
There were two or three examples that I keep thinking about, two of which were obvious points of EXTREME heart-rending anxiety for you. The two that stood out in my mind were the (a) "I never knew you"; and (b) "bring those enemies that didn't want me to rule over them and slay them before my eyes.".
The first of these (a) I actually have NEVER had a problem with, due to my association of this passage with [some of] the miracle-claiming, money-bilking, gullible-exploiting, unscrupulous TV 'healers'. They do all this stuff 'in the name of the Lord', and--like the magicians and 'for hire' exorcists at the time of Jesus--prey upon the trusting. They disgrace the name of Jesus, they make it IMPOSSIBLE for us to claim to be followers of the Lord without some raised eyebrows (in many circles), and they GREATLY hinder the quiet work of God to the needy of heart. So, the values implicit in Jesus' judgment of them I fully support. [One should also note that this was NOT the uniform judgment of Jesus/God/Bible on such folks. Jesus told the disciples once not to stop someone like that, because they at least wouldn't BLASPHEME Jesus QUICKLY after it! (Mark 9.39).]
I can remember having a problem with the second one of these (b) back in Grad School, but hadn't thought more about it until a couple of years ago when I started studying moral governance and community peace. In the scripture--and this was the uniform message of especially the Old Testament--the rule of God was one in which Shalom was pervasive. All nations were at peace, and all individuals within a community were constructive. There might have been an occasional calamity or misfortune, but the community would NOT experience treachery from other community members and would not experience exploitation by community leaders. It would be a place in which it was SAFE TO TRUST AGAIN. This was the reign of God. If someone decided on a higher self-evaluation (leading to elitism and/or greed and/or egotism), then the community and the leadership would patiently warn and try to educate such individual otherwise. If the person became intractable/incorrigible and stayed OVERTLY COMMITTED to anti-community values (i.e., self at the expense of others), then leadership had a moral governance responsibility to the 'trusting majority' to excise such a malignancy from the group. In some situations this would be expulsion/exile, but in others it might be capital punishment. But these were last resorts--the community always needed 'numbers' to survive/thrive, so correction, punishment, pedagogy, peer pressure, 'shame and guilt--in short everything WE USE to try to enforce community cooperation and alignment--was used FIRST.
So, the target group of 'those who don't want Me to rule over them' LOOKS TO ME (now) like a group that NEEDS isolation/elimination (in some form) from the community-of-those-who-seek-good-for-all. So, to me at least, this makes sense--when seen in the context of the CHARACTER of the rule of God.
3. I think a decent example of how the community (and God) tries to 'forbear' and 'forestall' judgment as long as it can, can even be seen in that same parable. The Wicked Tenants are given opportunity after opportunity to 'get with the program'--which would have secured their position of authority much better than their own method(!)--before judgment fell. And, interestingly, that position of privilege would have been assumed by someone else--God was willing to 'try again' with OTHER tenants, to share the benefits of the vineyard.
4. This kind of thinking always leads me back to one fundamental difference between us and God. Only HE has the responsibility for moral governance (so far). We are enjoined--at an individual level--to forgive (a) as long as it is requested; and (b) even proactively, in hopes of 'inciting' a change of perspective (e.g., 'coals upon their head'). We are enjoined--on an individual level--to 'judge nothing before the time'. Yet, once we begin to become a 'community--as in the church--the leadership IS SUPPOSED to make moral governance type of judgments and take appropriately entailed actions. The leadership is SUPPOSED to exile (excommunicate) professing believers that have affairs with step-mothers (for example). They are supposed to 'test' would-be leaders, and decide on their maturity before ordaining them. They are supposed to 'shame' busybodies, meddlers, and are NOT supposed to support 'freeloaders'. Community health requires some level of judgment, according to scripture, human experience, and common sense.
5. This moral governance issue is largely a 'future' one for God, and this is reflected in the prophetic nature of much of this biblical material. In the present, of course, God 'puts up with' all kinds of failure, treachery, abuse--trying to balance out 'time for reform' for the perp, and the need to protect the innocent. The fact that patience generally seems to win over protection creates PART OF the problem with the 'non-vacuous contrast': there IS NO KIND of in-time evil that has not happened to AT LEAST ONE of His loved ones. Does that mean that ANY state of affairs (or configuration of history) is COMPATIBLE with God's love/character? Absolutely not. If my 'more good than bad' gutripper defense is correct, then there are MANY, MANY 'configurations' of human experience and human history which WOULD BE incompatible with God--but in any particular 5 minutes of evil, this judgment is simply impossible to make with even a taint of 'statistical credibility'. Those who platitude at you (hey, i like that as a verb--!) about the 'Gods ways are higher than our ways' or other such 'inscrutability defenses' are correct ONLY in the 'inscrutability' area, and NOT in the 'different ways' area.
6. In other words, if God's 'moral' judgments are higher ONLY IN COMPLEXITY and NOT in the moral RULES themselves, then I can breathe easier. If i have reason to believe that--given access to all the data and given great integrity of ethics personally and given greater consistently of reason-I WOULD HAVE MADE THE SAME CHOICE (without somehow 'adding new morals into the rules'), this is something I can live with. But i would have a problem if, instead, God's judgment was based on additional-rules-that-CONTRADICT-my-rules, and that His ethical system is 'higher' in the sense of 'different' (and therefore incompatible with mine). In that case the problem would be much more difficult.
7. The sorta-scary scenario is that we are likely going to be placed in that kind of judgment role. The passage that says 'we will judge angels', along with the numerous passages in which humans testify against humans at the Last Judgment, indicates that some level of internal-ethics-external-manifestation will have been completed at the Eschaton. The judgment by words and works will be--in the presence of those who did/lived otherwise--IDENTICAL with a judgment of heart and head. Even we epistemically-challenged, mixed-nature, befuddled creatures will be able to see with fully-purified hearts of PERFECT Love, perfect grace, and perfect knowledge of what MUST BE EXCLUDED from the New Community of Peace and Trust. (The 'wicked' cannot enter the New Jerusalem of Revelation--the introduction of treachery, self-interest, apathy, etc cannot be allowed then--the world and God endured such viral activity since the Garden. And some of us long for the "New Heavens and the New Earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"--just so we can relax and trust FULLY our neighbor, our wives, our leaders again...
8. So, as long as i have reason to believe that the principles/ethical rules God will apply when He actually 'follows through on His threats' in the judgment prophecies and oracles, are EXACTLY THE SAME AS mine (or at least my better, non-glenn-favoring ones--smile), then I have plenty (if not 'every') reason to relax and not question His moral goodness. So, YOUR study task (i would think) would be to examine those judgment passages--at least those which look like moral governance ones-- which bother you the MOST (start with those), and dig in to see if the criteria used in judgment are somehow inconsistent with ANY criteria which YOU would consider "fair, grace-ful, but community-valuing".
9. One more comment before I try to state your question as precisely as I can: I have noticed, going back over some of the other non-governance looking parables, that there seems to be data in those which suggest that the 'harsh treatment' of some individual/group in it IS NO WAY 'normal' or 'business as usual'. I realized that in the case of the Wedding Garments, that the Banquet Hall was already FULL of people from the 'highways/hedges' who DID accept the offered/provided wedding garment. This one guy's actions were therefore NOT representative of what 'generally' happened. It was pedagogy--of course--but that parable suggested that if one didn't get in, it was their own WILFUL fault--given that everybody else had no problem with accepting the clothes, and given that the guy didn't even advance the 'i didn't know i HAD to do this' excuse. As I reflected on the 7 Virgins story, i realized a similar thing--there were 7 WISE VIRGINS who knew exactly what to do. It wasn't a matter of being 'judged for being ignorant of the Way' (or of 'not hearing the instructions/message')--they just chose not to 'go their own way'--contrary to the wisdom and advice of the 7 Wise Virgins. [I think i want to go through the others and see if there are also always 'foils' in them as well. In Dives and Lazarus, we obviously have Dives. In the two Foundations we have both, etc. But it might not always be the case, but it MIGHT generally be the case in the 'troubling one'...worth a check.]
10. One of the challenges in these heart-renders, i have noticed, is the amount of 'vagueness' that sometimes is hiding in there. At least, i have noticed them in MY struggles/questions. When I asked you, for example, what EXACTLY do you think Jesus SHOULD HAVE SAID/DONE in that situation, that's the kind of thing i am getting at. What exactly SHOULD GOD do with the intractably treacherous/divisive at the creation of the New Community/Universe? Forcibly 'convert' them? Annihilate them? Consign them to their own 'universe' (i.e., 'hell')? Turn them into butterflies? What exactly SHOULD a social prophet say about corrupt leadership? What 'threat' can a social prophet make to hypocritical leaders, operating under the guise of religious authority? What SPECIFIC moral injunctions upon us--ordered by God--is/are He guilty of breaking/violating/disobeying HIMSELF? Where SPECIFICALLY is the contradiction between the 'What He said to do' versus 'what HE does HIMSELF'? [Apart from the obvious ones that are related to moral governance--"you don't judge, but I will have to"--although we DO have to do smaller versions of those now, and maybe 'fuller versions' of that in the future ourselves.]
11. So, i though this morning about how i would word your question/problem PRECISELY (with also an eye upon possibly trying to use it on the Tank), and here's where the thinking process went:
a. The ethical system enjoined upon humans by the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is overwhelmingly good (by human moral standards). Some might argue it's too strict, and some might argue that it's too loose, but it has become the foundation of the entire 'social compassion' and benevolence movements of the Western world. Relief agencies, care for the poor, and even education are direct results of the CLEAR ethics of the bible. [Abuses by the leadership notwithstanding--a separate problem]
b. If God were judged on the basis of His overt revelation and statements as to what was good (e.g, beauty, trust, generosity, compassion), what He cared about (e.g., the poor, the hurting, the disadvantaged, the marginalized, the honest), and what He intends to reward (in the way of behavior and attitudes), God would be judged to be a good-hearted God.
c. But...there are many apparent-to-you passages (i.e. 'critical mass') which portray God as either (1) acting in overt and clear disregard to these revealed ethics--reflecting other, 'unknown' rules--; or (2) acting in overt and clear contradiction to these revealed ethics.
d. If we accept the truthfulness of (c), then one of the following entails:
1. God's morality is so different than ours as to be ALIEN. It's not 'good' or 'bad'--its just 'other' [or 'both', as in Eastern, Dualistic religions]. But this means that we cannot actually use the term 'good' of God, and this subverts all passages in which we are told to emulate God's heart (e.g. "forgive one another from the heart, as God has forgiven you in Christ" , "be imitators of God..and walk in love"). This might also subvert the view of the New Future as a place of 'total goodness'. [This also might render the Cross and aspects of the Word inexplicable, but this is a separate issue--how would we explain the 'surface texture' of Scripture under this theory, except by some appeal to schizoid behavior?]
2. God's morality is actually LOWER than ours. Somehow our morality has evolved BEYOND God's own (and expressed in the NT), and our superior morality can legitimately pronounce God to be inferior to us (in terms of compassion, love, fairness, grace, patience, etc). This is especially acute if God grows the Christian in sanctification in the direction of greater 'dissonance' between the two. [Could God actually DO such a thing? Can He lift us up higher than Himself, like a parent hopes and educates their kids to exceed them? This would, of course, be a very 'limited view' of deity, lower than even the Greeco-Roman gods.]
3. The whole system (and related theistic systems) must be a crock. The 'schizoid scripture' of Judeo-Christianity must be a product of purely humanistic forces, as the universe and order must be the product of 'disorderly forces' (an oxymoron, IMHO). We must be constructing 'good' ethics for us from some kind of evolutionary, DNA-based forces (a la socio-biology or the 'selfish gene'), and we must be projecting our bad desires (or our parents?) onto some god-figure [but why would we do this, except to exonerate ourselves like we do in psychological projection? not sure how to 'sell' this idea, actually...]
12. Now, assuming i have stated that fairly, here's an INITIAL assessment of that:
a. I find #3 above to be the least plausible of the three scenarios, actually. The something-from-nothing, the order-from-disorder, the life-from-nonlife, conscious-from-nonconscious barriers are just WAY TOO high to get across (IMO). I have thought about those for DECADES and just cannot find ANY evidence to support those 4 foundational building blocks, required for ANY basic positive atheism to work. and beyond that--accepting, rather, SOME kind of deity, explaining the texture of the New Testament is simply IMPOSSIBLE, if a historical core of the miracles and uniqueness and exalted claims of Jesus are not actually true. I just cannot find an alternate way to explain the surface data in that book, under an atheist/humanist/other perspective. The 'pat answers' given by some--fabrication, delusion, collusion, etc--have been shown in my studies to be less cohesive and plausible that the traditional understanding. Many, many more problems can be surfaced here.
b. # two is only slightly better--even given a HUGELY 'Open' view of God--it is difficult to 'comfortably' conceive of a metaphysical being so advanced as to be able to create a universe so filled with beauty, but who was also so limited in ethics (and aesthetics and ethics are related, IMO). I know that I can grow my kids to be ethically better than I by showing them my mistakes and saying 'learn from these', but that kind of argument certainly doesn't show up in Scripture! God never seems to suggest that we wants us to 'exceed Him' in moral development. He wants us to aspire to BE LIKE HIM, and to LOVE LIKE HE DOES, and to FORGIVE LIKE HE Does, but this scenario would almost require us to find such verbiage/disclosure in Holy Writ...and, on the contrary, we find the expectation that we will NOT be able to--and the provisions of forgiveness, reconciliation, etc are specifically architected to remedy our expected-failures in 'emulation'.
c. #1 is the one the 'higher ways than our ways' folks sometimes 'stumble into', I think. I KNOW this is the one I have personally fallen into more than once in my walk with God. Over the years I have come to know God's beautiful heart with increasing clarity (from Scripture and experience), but the number of times I have cried out "how could you POSSIBILY have let THAT happen, with a heart like YOURS?!" --in frustration and confusion--is 'considerable'...At first, this had an effect on me that I would guess is also part of your PRESENT perspective--that of pushing me toward a 'Wholly Other' view of God (as the only explanation). If God were a force or a cat or simply anything non-human, then it would explain this 'how could you...' experience a little. And those moments, for me, were so very very difficult.
13. let me explain that last point a bit. I have been a lone wolf all my life. Early/many experiences in my life have created a character in me that have never been able to depend completely on anyone (beyond a sliver). Everybody 'meant well', but I have experience various levels of betrayal at every turn of life (or at least those are the most vivid memories)...I found it difficult to 'trust God', but found His acceptance of me to be transforming. I somehow could see by the Cross, and by my 'favorite passages' ("Come onto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden"...because not allowing anyone to help you--because there was always a hidden agenda--makes one very, very tired...) that He had no agenda but giving me freedom, allowing me learn to trust Someone (and the freedom that gives--i am weeping as I write this, my young friend, over the experience of this grace), for letting Him share some of my load...such a One, i could trust...and the only friend, up to that point in my life, who had never hurt me...My whole subsequent life grew up around knowing Him, after He came looking for me (for ME! little ME!)...He is/was my whole life, the center of my conscious existence, my safe place, my sanctuary, my strength, my Friend...and when confronted with the temptation to conclude that "He's not really who I thought He was..." was agony beyond words...even writing this renders me wracking with great sobs at the thought..."alone again, naturally..."...
But this periodic agony was (a) not really related to specific scriptures [as in your case]; and (b) was ameliorated by 3 factors:
1. the experiences 'wrapped' around, and consequent to, said 'inscrutable' events were revelatory of His goodness. There was comfort. There was closure. There were side effects that WERE in keeping with my view of His heart; and
2. sometimes the experiences became explicable ("capable of being scruted"...smile), creating an ever-growing warrant to 'give Him the benefit of the doubt'.;
3. the increasing study of His character IN SCRIPTURE (on the Tough questions SPECIFICALLY) revealed a heart which would be likely to be MUCH MORE DISTURBED about the atrocity THAN my own heart would be. I probably (depending on the day and mood, of course) would have been 'smug', 'encouraged', and 'self-righteous' over a coming judgment on Moab-the-Bully, but God (the pronouncer and executor of said judgment) wept/lamented that they wouldn't be singing and dancing at the upcoming harvest festival...and i began more and more to appreciate the 'cardiac distance' in God between that "hated-by-His-heart permissive will" and the "passion-of-His-heart declared will"...and every day i am more and more thankful that i personally do not have His job--the responsibility of moral governance, of having to make judgment calls of how much 'God being patient with the wicked' can the community of 'little people like me' WITHSTAND/absorb, is one that makes my heart shudder when thinking about..."a Man of Sorrows, and acquainted with Grief...and it pained God in His heart that He had made man upon the earth"--what an understatement for the God of human history!
14. I seem to always end back up at the knowledge/belief that the continuity between His morality/heart and MY morality/heart is substantial, radical, and increasing. I cannot maintain the ALIEN position almost at all anymore, and for me, this warrants me toward 'inscrutable' but not "different" Ways. And actually, its only partially 'inscrutable' at that...
15. Now, I've been writing on this at least 4 hours and not sure i said much of relevance to your question...but to my own way of thinking (at least at THIS point of experience of God), i honestly am convinced that I have a warrant for rejecting the IMPLICATION of Premises C and D. I have a warrant for believing that the passages depicting divine duplicity MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY DO THAT. That they are somehow reflective of MY MORALITY (on a good day), and are somehow reflective of what a good-hearted person SHOULD DO in those situations (given cultural continuity, etc). I have enough data/experience and confidence in my understanding of select biblical passages/themes/events to BEGIN with denying the conclusion of the argument (i.e., Alien/Inferior/Crock), and then working backward to find the erroneous premise. But you might NOT have that extensive of an audit trail/'successful resolution experiences' available to you (yet), and so it might not be appropriate [or 'as appropriate'] for YOU to begin there. [Although it would perhaps be more appropriate to say rather "to what EXTENT your experience base/exegetical understanding so far supports a 'good hearted God' position...more of a spectral sizing statement.]
16. BTW, i don't have the SLIGHTEST problem anymore with trusting God with the 'fate of those who haven't heard'. After i wrote my piece on that years ago, and as i ponder more and more (a) the experience of Naaman/Elisha; (b) the solidarity/identification of God with the 'needy'; and (c) the theme of recompense to the 'victims' and the 'misled', i find WAY TOO MANY 'loopholes' for a gracious-hearted God to apply in individual cases throughout time and space...The Father has just too many 'justifications' to draw upon, in deciding where/when to apply the benefits of the Cross to the situations of those who never will get a human missionary in front of them...some of these thoughts are not original with me, of course, and many can be found in modern evangelical treatments of the subject.]
17. There are, of course, themes in Holy Writ which i still have to work through. The problem Habbakkuk had--"how can You use the more-evil (Assyrians) to punish the less-evil (Israel)?"--still puzzles me a little (although the principle of 'causal consequence' explains most of it. And this complex of punishing outbound-evil with inbound-evil shows up frequently. But its not an agony issue, because i can see the 'seeds of a resolution' in it. Related to this is the oddity where God has to get someone evil-in-heart to do something evil-in-history BEFORE He can remove them from the scene. Its like He has to defend expulsion from the community BEFORE some angelic group (or before Himself? or before when WE are in that judgment position?), and cannot act 'pre-emptively' (e.g., I know you are going to do something bad, and i will act/remove you BEFORE you do'--He doesn't seem to be able to do this, for reasons of justice?). Its almost like He's "self-restricted" to channeling the bad into some kind of 'at least SLIGHTLY contributory' direction--so ALL is not lost in such an act? Channeling the evil of Assyria to chastise Israel; channellings the evil of the Amorites to be able to get Israel a land; directing the betrayal of Judas into providing the Lamb of God for the sins of the world...? But these don't eat at me...and so i continue to pray for you, and hurt WITH you, friend...
Anyway, that's my blathering for the day...gotta get to work now...i hope SOME of this provides some additional data for you to work with in struggling through this...
(I'm too tired to even edit this--forgive me, and ask me if i typed something illegibly...as opposed to said something stupidly...smile),
……………………………………
He wrote back, and I responded:
okay...just back from Tampa (last night), i THOUGHT i was gonna be able to write/think some on the trip, but the prep work was too exhausting...
you have sent two of these since I last replied, and i haven't read them (except the note at the end of this about it being a 'scream'--so I'll set my expectations accordingly...smile) and i read the note at the end of the second--to see if it said SCREAM2, or something--to see if i needed a Flak Jacket for both (smile)...I'll try to get through one of these tonight (i still have to get some work done later, but this will be a closer-to-heart break from Wireless Technology Trends... sigh/smile)...and then the other tomorrow...
anyway, let's see "what lies below..." (smile):
-----Original Message-----
From:
To: Glenn Miller
Hey, Glenn,
You have poured and do pour so much time into me. Time’s the most precious resource in my life, and as far as I can tell it’s up there on the list in yours too, and I’m so touched by how you don’t even seem to count it…
[strictly speaking, every time i START to 'count it', I remember its not mine anyway...i gave it all to Him, thirty-odd years ago...in exchange for this life charged with meaning, authenticity, sweet-searching souls like you, moral depth only created in this Vale of Tears, joys so simply and so sublime, and a never-ending stream of comfort, challenge, and novelty...not a dull moment this walk of discipleship!
I will try not to waste it…but thank you….and thank you even more for not leaving me alone in this.
[there's at least THREE of us that I know involved in this...(sly smile)...]
[and i think i told the story about my first pastor, back in college, who told me to call him DAY OR NIGHT--anytime--with my bible questions...he was convinced that whatever he passed on to me, I would pass on to even more than that...In YOUR CASE, i suspect--from the sheer intensity of your struggle with this--that this might be a case like that...I know "most" believers do not have deep problems with some/many of the passages you mention (even good-hearted evangelical scholars who specialize in the words of Jesus), so I suspect that has a decidedly 'spiritual warfare' dimension to it for you... the height of agony will likely be linked to depth of character/empathy to those YOU will try to help in the future...
[and, also like the case of MY pastor, i recognize that MY 'answers' to you will not suffice, but rather that they will be components, directions, suggestions which you sift, sort, fuse, refine, etc into YOUR personal response to the Jesus of the Gospels and the God of the Bible...
Sometimes when thinking about this stuff, I think “Glenn went through all of this, and he had NO one,”
[but i CONSTANTLY wonder how much of that was self-induced...i didn't even THINK to ask for 'help'...I asked, begged, pleaded for ANSWERS and DELIVERANCE, but never for help...but that's another story for another time...]
and I think about the treacheries you’ve suffered (…and that’s all just the ones I know about) and don’t understand how you still function, much less love.
[sure you do...my experience of the love of Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit has overshadowed and even transformed my experiences of hurt, abandonment, betrayal, and failure...my "net" experience of life during the last 30+ years has been 'positive' (clearly)...i function (and my counselor asked me how i did it all those years ago, remember the story?) by spending 60-90 minutes each morning with my Lord...my rock, my strength, my solace, my life...and my hope for healing on the other side (yes!)...
This won’t be comprehensive but may save us some time when we talk, if you’re still able to.
I take your point about the “I never knew you” to the hucksters. I can agree that it DOES seem to refer to deliberate hypocrites, and that its point is “this is what I think of hypocrisy”. But there is also the content that these people are asking for admission to the kingdom, and he is expressing disgust and turning them away. You and I can theorize about heaven being such a thing that your own character’s an integral part of your ability to enter, and put the responsibility back on their shoulders – and really, intuitively, that DOES make sense to me - but in the parable itself Jesus portrays himself as capable of letting them enter and as refusing. I guess the question is less “why don’t they go to heaven?” as “why would He portray Himself as having that attitude toward them?”
[The context of this passage in Matthew 7 CLEARLY indicates that these folks were 'ferocious wolves', not even simple hucksters...look at the passage on either side of it:
MT 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
[They knew his words, bear evil fruit, etc...nothing 'innocent' about these at all...
[And, if you compare the passage AFTER it in a Lukan parallel, you see that the reference is to the leadership--and that it is the simple, from the east and west who are admitted:
LK 13:27 "But he will reply, `I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
LK 13:28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
[SNIP: a passage about Herod the Fox]
LK 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
[Here it is the leadership of Jerusalem who is excluded, on the basis of 'fighting God'--God, under the image of a mother hen, wanted to gather all the 'little ones'--but the leadership stood in the way, and thwarted(?) God's outreach to the children...
[These leaders think they DESERVE the feast, on their own elitist terms, expecting God to bow to their 'majesty' and 'superiority'...They want to eat the treasures of the Feast (the "choicest of meats and the most aged of wines"--Is 25), without abiding by the foundational charter and character of the New Community. Privileges without responsibility; blessings without humility; community benefits without compromise...
[of COURSE they expect to get in! of COURSE they want the Feast blessings and not the outside darkness...but they want the seats of 'better-than-thou' honor, and want to be 'exalted' by those they look down on...they just don't belong in that world at all...
[COULD/DID Jesus REALLY have the option to let them in, though? You seem to assume He does, but I don't think so... at that point in the Eschaton, the righteous have suffered enough at the hands of wolves, they have borne wounds long enough from 'the problem of innocent suffering', and they have been subjugated, humiliated, shamed, abused, marginalized ENOUGH by these would-be-fellow-feasters! At some point, God HAS TO deliver the 'meek of the earth'--He has to say 'you have suffered enough--behold your reward'; He has to wipe every tear and preclude such tears in the future...I do NOT think God can exercise His incredible patience FOREVER--moral justice and His commitment to those who sought His protection, comfort, solace MUST EVENTUALLY exclude those sources of 'willful pain'...
[And, I suspect that overt lawless evil-seekers will/might PREFER the darkness to the Feast, but the self-righteous evil-doers will attempt to pollute even THAT beauty (as they did the beauty of the Law)...they want the Feast of the Lord, WITHOUT the 'reign of righteousness'...]
I agree that the concept of heaven as a community, where everyone influences everyone else, seems to ‘tie God’s hands’ a bit re who he can let in.
[oh, i guess i just said the same thing above...]
There seems to be Scriptural support for that too.
[tons and tons]
But how much sense does it REALLY make? Should we really think God has only two options for where he can put people, and in heaven he’d HAVE to give them complete access to the community, so He’s forced to send them to hell?
[Couple of points here:
[1. When we get into the geography/metaphysics of the 'eternal state' (or whatever), I have almost ZERO confidence in human ability to work in that space...we are TOTALLY dependent on 'outside information' on that one...and most of the disclosures about that state by God are stating in strong polar, dichotomies. Taken at face value, we DO end up with only heaven and hell...
[2. that being said, there are two OTHER themes of scripture that could lead one to believe that this harsh-dichotomy is in standard prophetic hyperbole: (a) the principle of judgment EXACTLY according to works; and (b) the notion of [at least SOME] death as cessation/annihilation. REAL 'faith' has an inevitable consequence of INTERNAL 'spiritual' response to moral situations...one might not act on the basis of compassion or moral outrage, but a believer will have at least a TINY impulse to do so..."deeds" (for God) are judged on that internal basis...Matt 25--the 'unknowing benefactors of Jesus'--are a good example.
['deeds' of course, as a basis of judgment, opens up a HUGE possible spectrum, and all the indications are that judgment IS on a spectrum--as I indicated in the Gutripper series...
[The death-as-cessation situation is a bit more complex, but non-existence (as either a judgment or simple consequence of mortality-not-swallowed-up-by-immortality) is at least a third 'where'...
[3. but, again, i cannot make much sense of the metaphysics of Heaven AT ALL...i get tripped up WAY TOO QUICKLY to invest much time in it...i have to rely explicitly and totally on knowledge coming from an epistemically-privileged position...and i have to work within those vague images and analogies as best i can...
I can see why the Catholics came up with purgatory…it just doesn’t jibe with me that individual eternal fates would be dictated by their potential influence on the saved community.
[Actually, the Catholics use a different basis to come up with that...its a bit complicated (so i don't want to get too far off track), but eventually, EVERYBODY in purgatory is released (after they have paid for their sins), so you are back to two endplaces ANYWAY (heaven and hell)...although, i should mention that traditional Catholicism has a place called 'Limbo'--if you remember--for all the babies who die without being baptized into the Catholic church...they go to 'limbo', a place of 'complete natural happiness surpassing any on earth'--but which 'cannot compare with the bliss of heaven...supernatural joy' (from my old Catholic Catechism--I KNEW it would come in handy some day!)...Limbo can easily be 'extended' to encompass VAST MASSES of folks, of course, but its just as theologically 'difficult to visualize' as is the few topographies we have of heaven (e.g., the New Jerusalem has the evildoers camped outside the gates???)
[as for the jibe-ing: i am not sure i can agree with you here...to me the very history of the world would SEEM (to me) to argue the contrary...that those whose 'totally unleashed/unrestrained/internally-architected' characters ended up 'virally' and 'parasitically' malignant should unquestionably be excluded from those who characters ended up trusting and open ('perfect hosts')...This is 'interactional' distance (of course) and not some 'geographical' distance...the nature of the argument could have Lewis' hell co-located with heaven, as long as the two could not 'see' or interoperate with one another...another metaphysical 'boggle' about the future...
[but the biblical data, btw, is very consistent and insistent in its portrayal of the future as a place of peace, of trust, of safety...and place in which the treacherous have no place...the community aspect is probably the dominant one...e.g., one's spiritual choices and responses to other God-imaged humans create character that either 'qualifies' one as being a person who would 'fit in' in a perfect place (once the internal righteous heart is fully freed from the constraints of a fallen nature, etc) or as one who would be destructive of such a place/state. From Psalms to the Prophets to the Epistles--this is very persistent and indeed, the hope of the 'meek of the earth'...]
The other example you addressed – the ‘kill those enemies of mine in front of me’ one – well, I guess the general problem is what you use as data to set the context for it. It COULD certainly be interpreted the way you see it, if you import the concept of community good. (I’m sorry, I think it was confusing – I was actually taking the example from one version of the parable of the talents, where there was a subplot about the master’s enemies sending a delegation after him to object to his being crowned king.) But in the story itself, the thing he actually SAYS is “Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be crowned king – bring them over here and kill them in front of me.” ESPECIALLY the “in front of me” part sounds to me a lot more like basic vengeance. I can see how the question becomes what fits in best with the general pattern of scripture, but to me these examples are numerous enough to AFFECT the general pattern of scripture. And that’s the problem in a nutshell, right?
[well, i sorta agree with you here--it IS the 'general pattern' of scripture--but I don't see that pattern as anything negative yet (as I understand it, but i don't see it as 'personal vengeance' at all). The general pattern is 'judgment upon assertion of the final kingdom','freedom/recompense/safety for the oppressed', 'removal of enemies', and these are done SPECIFICALLY by the King and his delegates ('in front of me'). I can see that the King/Jesus would take pleasure in the overall 'result' of the executions (i.e., a safe community for the normal folk), and the image obviously gives the evildoers no reason to suspect they will escape justice, but i don't see any real 'personal gratification dimension' present in the text.
[But after your comment here, i decided to check out some commentaries to see what they 'saw' there. Many didn't see any problem there, pointing to the fact that this was actually a royal 'responsibility' upon accession. Some commented that it was 'barbarous' or 'strange' by Western standards, but NOT by Eastern standards. Here is a couple of the entries (forgive typos):
["The nobleman's anger (vv. 26-27) is not intended to attribute such behavior to Jesus himself. Rather, it does picture the kind of response one might have expected in Jesus' day, especially from the Herodians. It also reveals the seriousness of flouting the orders of the King whom God has appointed Judge." [NIV Bib Commentary--BUT NOTICE that this is somewhat speculative: there is not the slightest hint of 'anger' in this statement. One might compare the accession of Solomon, in which he executed several enemies of the kingdom--but from WISDOM, and not from ANGER or personal vendetta...]
["...barbarous, but true to Eastern life; the new king cannot afford to let them live. In the spiritual sphere the slaying will be done by the moral order of the world (destruction of Jerusalem), King Jesus weeping over their fate" [Expositors' Greek NT...note that this ties the immediately following passage (weeping over Jerusalem) and the "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" with this act of royal accession.]
["Luke concludes by returning to the royal parable. The action here is a natural part of the consolidation of power of the newly instated monarch. This sort of behavior had been part of Archelaus’ strategy on gaining possession of his ethnarchy (Josephus, War 2.111) and was a notable feature of Herod the Great’s accession to power (War 1.351–58). It also has its counterpart in OT victory scenes (1 Sam 15:33). In the Lukan use, this will be a picture of eschatological judgment, but since, for Luke, the destruction of Jerusalem is already the first installment of that judgment (see at 17:31 and esp. at chap. 21), the quasi-military imagery here is appropriately to be linked with what is anticipated in chap. 21. The link with chap. 21 is strengthened by the presence in this section of 19:41–44. On the three horizons of judgment with which Luke works, see at 12:5; 13:3. katasfavzein, “to slay,” is found only here in the NT" [WBC...notice "a natural part of the consolidation of power"--NOT a personal matter per se.]
["they suffer the typical fate of ancient rebels..it was not uncommon for such massacres to take place before the ruler's presence (1 Sam 15.33; Rev 14.10; frequent examples in ancient history, e.g. Jos Ant 13.380)...What is difficult is the use of this imagery with regard to the judgment of the Son of man on unfaithful people who reject his rule over them; but the language, although strange to us, is such as would make sense to jesus' hearers and convey to them the seriousness of their position." [NIGTC]
I have gotten together a list of the things in Matthew that seem troublesome along this line, and of course it’s too long for us to plow through on the phone…I guess I’m hoping we can just talk out some patterns that will help…maybe part of this is what happens when you let problems accumulate for too long without actually solving any of them. I don’t know.
[hmmm...any chance you could just list the offending PHRASE and the verse reference, and let me see if i can figure out the difficulty? maybe i can see a pattern that way?
You wrote: “So, YOUR study task (i would think) would be to examine those judgment passages--at least those which look like moral governance ones-- which bother you the MOST (start with those), and dig in to see if the criteria used in judgment are somehow inconsistent with ANY criteria which YOU would consider "fair, grace-ful, but community-valuing". That’s fair enough…I’ll give that some thought…
But…well, this drags in even more, but it’s where I am now. Like we talked about the other night, I’m getting more and more frustrated, not just by the issues themselves, but by the prominence they seem to demand. In a world with so much suffering that I could help actually put a dent in, why would God expect someone to spend hundreds of hours agonizing over whether He sends people with the wrong theology to hell?
[wrong theology?? all of the passages you have mentioned as problematic so far are about evil-doers, not 'bad theologians'! These enemies of good and of God and of grace and of generosity...exploitative hypocrites, dishonest rulers, oppressive leaders...none of these passages can be used to defend a 'judgment not by works, but by theology' position, friend...you have to come up with OTHER verses that you think support 'hell for the theologically misinformed' (irrespective of their works!)--i suspect that your list of problems in Matthew have very, very few verses that are clearly about this later category--and if i am correct in THAT 'sizing', then your 'general pattern' argument doesnt apply to this case...we have too many incidental passages in the Bible, in which the 'theologically off' individuals are commended/accepted by God (e.g., Namaan, Cornelius, Nineveh, even Baalam and Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus!)--mostly polytheists, and HUGELY "ignorant of YHWH" (Namaan even carried dirt from Israel back with him, since he believed YHWH could only be worshiped on his own turf!--yet Elisha said 'go in peace'...)
Whether he DOES send them isn’t the only issue. It’s whether He could possibly want anyone to be unsure of the answer, and provide a Scripture that makes it seem possible.
[I am not sure I am on the same page with you here...I personally am perfectly content to trust God's wisdom, mercy, and better-than-fair approach to this issue...i don't think there IS A WAY to accomplish what you are asking for...I personally DONT WANT the 'incorrigibly treacherous' to be in heaven with you and I, and i unquestionably want the opposite group to be there, but how in the world would God 'give us a list' of these folks AHEAD of THEIR death???? He has given us principles and criteria--to even apply to ourselves--but there's NO WAY to give us a scripture that allows PERFECT PREDICTION (necessary for YOUR 'certainty need'). EVEN IF judgment were based on 'bad theology', you STILL couldn't make that determination about a person--HOW BAD does it have to be? How LONG does it have to be bad? How FIRMLY does the bad have to be believed? etc. And so you COULDNT apply anything to any specific person (and these are the folks you are worried about hopefully), and come up with a certain knowledge about that person.
[I am probably not being clear here, but I am gonna charge ahead anyway (4-year-old grin)...
[In other words: EVEN IF God gave a scripture that said, "IF a person believes the following 3 facts about God/Jesus/whatever, then they will go to heaven--regardless of lifestyle, behavior, attitudes, treachery, apathy, arrogance, etc", you could STILL NEVER BE SURE it applied to ANY GIVEN SOUL. There would always be a question of 'do they understand the facts CLEARLY enough?', 'will they STOP believing them before they die?', 'does their holding beliefs inconsistent with those facts imply that they DONT believe them after all', etc...In other words, you could still never get the 'sure-ness' you are searching for...so you would be stuck with a principle-only, without a way to USE that principle PREDICTIVELY...
[And that is EXACTLY the approach I have taken: I have a principle that God has revealed in scripture, and that I have validated in my experience and i find 'confidence' in that principle: "Shall not the God of all the earth do right?"..."God is good and gracious to all He has made"...His mercy FAR OUTDISTANCES his 'fairness'...but at the same time, i know there is some lines He will not cross: personal violation (He doesn't force someone to believe against 'al